We’ve made no mystery of our love for Evil here at Fangirlish, and part of that has included pretty much constantly fangirling over how good Katja Herbers is in the role of Kristen Bouchard. And, as anyone who is either involved with making the series or is just a fan will tell you, we’re all…not happy (understatement) to say the phrase “series finale” so soon in relation to this one. So, a natural first question to start with when I interviewed Herbers was whether she was satisfied with where Kristen ends up. If we really, truly have to end it here, does that ending work for the person who brought her to life? “Yeah, I am. I am very happy with the finale,” she told me.
And, from there, the rest of our conversation basically just became a back-and-forth between two people who, overall, have been very happy — to borrow the actress’ phrase — with the show in general.
At multiple points during the interview, including immediately after asking whether or not Herbers was happy with Kristen’s final (for now??? Please, TV gods — I’m begging) destination, she praised Robert and Michelle King’s genius. “It’s always funny because I’m in the show, so whenever I gush about the show, I’m like, ‘oh, is that weird?’ Because I’m in it,” she told me. “But I mean, I think Robert and Michelle are so incredible, and I think Robert directed this finale so beautifully. And there is so…just everything that makes our show fun, in my opinion, is in this finale.”
She also told me she thinks “that, should we leave it here, I’m pretty excited about it.” Because “it leaves an ending sort of slightly open, should someone want to resurrect it. But not in an annoying way where you’re like, ‘oh, if it doesn’t get resurrected, now what?’ You do know where everyone is.”
When Katja Herbers asks you for your opinion on the Evil finale, you share it — even if the first thing that comes to mind is your concern about Sister Andrea winding up at the silent retreat. But Herbers was able to put a more positive and reassuring spin on it. (Which is why she’s the star and I’m just…the person who shouts into the void and is always stunned when it turns out someone listened.) “Well, she might be there and go and change things…because she is Sister Andrea.” Herbers also “thought it was quite moving that we got to see Fenna again.” (True.) Additionally, “the idea of Fenna and Sister Andrea being in the same place is maybe nice, and maybe they can be rebels together.”
And, later in the interview, when I asked about the series’ tendency to leave some of the questions it raised open-ended — though, when pressed on whether I really thought that, I did admit that David and Leland’s remote viewing sessions were pretty clearly supernatural — Herbers told me, “I like that we don’t answer everything. Because even being on the show for this long, I am very much very close to Kristen in the sense of what I would believe or not believe. And I would sooner not believe my own eyes, or my own experience, than to think that there’s something at play. You know, not explained necessarily by science…I would be very confused by that.”
What if we save Evil?
As we see in the Evil series finale, Kristen and her girls join David in Rome. (Which is…a better outcome than if it had just been David, all by himself. I said what I said.) So, if a miracle occurs, and someone saves the series, how would Unhinged!Kristen in Rome work? “Just with, you know, sunglasses and gelato,” Herbers joked. And if she needs a weapon? “I’m sure she can figure it out.”
On a more serious/overall arc note, it would be “pretty exciting to be that close to the center of it all — if the show continues —and what that means.” Not to mention, there’s the antichrist to worry about. Despite Evil Grandma (RIP) getting him baptized, Kristen “did see Timothy being a bit of a demon, and she gave him the pacifier and said nothing was wrong.” So, does that mean Sheryl’s attempt to save him didn’t work? Imagine if we had more episodes to answer that question.
Continuing with Timothy’s little demon moment, Herbers told me, “I don’t know if she believes her own eyes, to be honest” because “her world has been so insane.” This launched us a discussion about how the Evil series finale fits in a broader theme, so to speak, about how every single season of the show has ended thus far. “To me, at least, it felt like we’ve had all these similar endings.” In Season 1, “the ending was me…looking at the burn [from] the cross in my hand” and the “look in the mirror. I remember talking to Robert and Michelle about it, how I should be playing it. And they were looking for something that felt…kind of light.”
While the Season 2 ending — Kristen’s confession and the kiss that followed — might’ve been a bit different, the Season 3 finale also gave Kristen a chance to question her reality. This time, Sister Andrea visited her house to help with a translation…and then went on a demon-hunting mission. That was, of course, before the entire episode ended on a real shock for Kristen: Leland’s big announcement — and Sheryl participating in the celebration. Additionally, “the original ending of [Season 4], when Timothy’s at the door, there’s a similar kind of look” to the one in Season 1. Kinda, as I suggested for a descriptor, like “now what?” “Yeah,” Herbers replied, “it’s just all too crazy. And I think that the ending of this, these four episodes — or the entire thing — have the similar type of quality of…’Does she believe what just happened?’”
Notably, although there are always Dana Scully comparisons to be made — hi. Made one during the interview. (Original, I know) — Kristen isn’t quite the same as someone who sees aliens over and over while still living in denial. Or, well, for Kristen it’d be demons. Speaking for Kristen, Katja told me her glimpse of what might or might not be Timothy’s demon side “is the first time, actually, that I see a demon. I’ve seen…that actual demon baby that I breastfed in Season 3. But, you know, that was a monster in my nightmare. But I’ve never been able to spot demons.” She also pointed out that Kristen didn’t see Leland’s demon lawyer in the courtroom when she testified against him.
Which means, if the show finds a new life somewhere else, “I don’t know what that means for Kristen’s future — if there’s a future. Like, is she now able to see? What does that mean? Or is this her imagination? Probably not.” At this point, I supplied the possibility of it being kind of a metaphor for when Timothy’s getting on his mommy’s nerves. But that wouldn’t work either. Because “he’s been…the polar opposite of [a demon]. He doesn’t even ever cry in my presence. He’s just the joy of my life. Even when he’s a little demon…he’s still sort of cute.”
On Evil Season 4’s sense of singing saying goodbye
Even in some episodes that were filmed before anyone knew the series was canceled, Evil Season 4 had this feeling of goodbye about it. Admittedly, that feeling probably came, primarily, from knowing the show was ending by the time we started watching it. But the many touching moments for the Kristen/David/Ben trio just made this final season feel that much more special and, well, final.
Many of those trio scenes included…singing, something Herbers was “insanely nervous” for. “I even emailed Robert [King] going like, ‘hey, do you know I can’t really sing?’ But then, I saw it and I was like, ‘oh, maybe I’m too hard on myself. It sounded fine.’” At this point, I was like…but wait a minute. This can’t be new for someone who came from a family of musicians. But…that’s probably where the nerves came from in the first place. “I come from, you know, professional classical musicians. So, my standard for what music is…I’ve always been like, ‘I’ll just do the acting.’”
On the subject of whether, in retrospect, leaning into the trio’s friendship should feel like a goodbye, Herbers reminded me about what a shock the cancellation news was at the time. (And even remains now.) “Well, I know for a fact that nobody thought it was ending. We all very much thought that we were going to do five, six, potentially seven seasons. I know that Robert and Michelle had that in mind — six or seven. And so I think really the strike kind of got to us. So, I’d never felt like, ‘oh, they’re sort of wrapping this up.’”
At this point, she asked if I meant, perhaps there were “omens.” But no, it was more that so much of this final season felt like a love letter to the assessors’ friendship, like them in the truck when they went werewolf hunting. Or, maybe, the aforementioned singing on the trip to the Vatican and David’s little birthday celebration. Admittedly, as viewers, we knew the unacceptable bad news before we even watched the premiere. So, I suggested that the sense I got, of everything ending, coming from even the earliest scenes that highlighted the friendships could’ve been projection.
“Maybe what you’re feeling is that [projection] or what comes through. I don’t know if it’s just the writing or also our performances. But we, over the years, have become…closer friends. And I think Robert and Michelle wrote to…us in that sense, and made it more intimate between the three of us.” As far as something that’s actually part of the end goes, she added, “I really love that in the last episode, I get to say I love you to Ben.” (Also loved that part, for what it’s worth.)
Katja Herbers on Robert and Michelle King’s brilliance
The whole discussion of whether or not there were signs that Evil was moving toward the end, even when it wasn’t, brought Herbers to another great point: There is always so much happening on this series. For the character of Kristen Bouchard, in particular, it seemed like everything that could happen did happen in Season 2. And yet, she still had plenty more to experience in the following two seasons — and so much story still open to tell…if only someone would save Evil. (Yeah, I’m going to keep saying that. And?)
As Herbers put it, in “the second season, I remember thinking, ‘holy crap.’ …[because] that was such an amazing season for me, in terms of a character arc. It was so jam packed that I thought, ‘wow, they really…’ They made me go from…killing someone, to thinking I’m possessed, to, you know, confessing to David, to kissing him. And like, it was…it could have been three seasons.” At the time, she remembered thinking “I’ve already played all this, and sort of, now what? But then, the Kings…surprised me so much.” And so, “whenever I have anything — any thoughts in any regard — going like, ‘ooh, is this too quick?’ Or ‘oh, is this too…’ anything, they proved me wrong.” Basically, Robert and Michelle King are “just brilliant writers.”
What’s next for Katja Herbers?
So, in the first place, the four daughters aren’t going anywhere — ”I talk to them all the time,” Herbers told me. Since two of those daughters have played victims on Law & Order: SVU (Brooklyn Shuck in 24×02, Dalya Knapp in 24×04), and Evil Grandma (aka Christine Lahti’s Sheryl) also got killed there, my TV-rotted brain continues to want Unhinged!Kristen to show up and get some revenge. But that’s…probably not happening.
What would Katja Herbers like to do next? She told me she’s “hoping to do some interesting film work…potentially, also, in Europe.” But Evil is “going to be a tough job to follow.” Herbers called Kristen “a role of a lifetime,” adding that she doesn’t “know if [she’ll] get something as complicated and going across genres.” But it’s not just about the character. It was also about the people she got to work with, “the chemistry with the cast, but also with the crew, with the Kings…it was just such a perfect storm of people getting together that, yeah, it’s going to be a tough one to follow. And my standards are high. I mean, they always sort of were…I’ve always only taken jobs of things that I desperately want to watch myself. So, I’ll probably continue to do it like that and see what comes in.”
The natural next question to ask was what she’s been watching lately. “I was watching The Bear.” (Friends, if you’re like me and have been lazy about getting to that one…maybe now’s the time.) Herbers has also “been watching old movies” and “just watched a Gena Rowlands movie because she passed away” recently.
Kristen and David in Rome
Obviously, there’s no discussing Evil, or even its series finale, without eventually getting to Kristen and David’s complicated relationship. Even after running away to Rome together, the main thing that’s kept them apart is still there. As in, “he’s still a priest.” And, maybe, David’s high-profile job even complicates things further than ever before. So, was there any conversation about how to approach that final glimpse we see of them together? “No, no, we don’t know much beforehand.”
That didn’t shut down the will they/won’t they conversation, though. Not even close. Herbers brought up a scene that didn’t even have Kristen in it but was…definitely all about them. Referencing one of the best parts of Evil 4×11, she told me, “I thought that scene was really just a very beautiful scene between David and Ben, where David says, ‘I do love her or need her…but I am not going to break my promise. I’m not going to do it.’” But never say never. Or at least, never say nothing. “In my view, they want to be together. But…if there’s no physicality to the togetherness, then that’s also still a together.” At the very least, and not to be taken for granted, “they’re really great friends.” Not to mention, “it’s fun to have some infatuation.”
Might or might not have gone off about how some shows cast leads with great chemistry and then try to play like they didn’t know what they were doing, while others actually lean into it and have fun with fans, here. If anyone asks whether or not I used the word “hostile” to describe how some shippers get treated…no comment.
Back to your regularly-scheduled interview.
As far as David and Kristen go, Herbers said, “I think it was probably always the plan, regardless of our casting. I think the idea of a married woman and a priest is a — is a very dramatic, interesting combination.But yeah, Mike and I do have great chemistry, and I’m sure that helped the equation.”
The Herbers test
If you do an interview with Katja Herbers, and you don’t talk about climate change, have you even been paying attention? That’s especially true after a season where the issue came up more than once — most notably in Evil 4×10. I was pretty sure, at the time, that Herbers’ influence was all over that. So, clearly, I had to ask if I was correct in my assumption.
The short answer. Yes. And the long answer? “I think Robert and Michelle are also worried, like any sensible human being would be, about…the state of our climate [and] world. But I did ask for it. Like, I have sent them some emails about it.” And, here’s yet another chance to insert a plea for someone to save this show. Picture this: “I would have loved to maybe, potentially…see a whole episode, or a whole season, around the biggest evil of all, in my opinion. The knowingly…destroying our livable climate. I think that would be really interesting. And maybe we would have leaned into that more, should we have continued.”
But, to get back to the subject of the Kings and the state of TV as a whole, “they’re very aware. And I’m glad. It’s kind of amazing to me how little shows do mention — like even mention! — the climate crisis.” And, if you were at all confused about the heading for this section of the interview, here we go. Because I think someone should officially trademark (or whatever) the Herbers test. “I feel like it would be great if we had…you know, the Bechdel test? There should be a different kind of test where you’re like, ‘are we denying [climate change] or do we mention this?’ I think it’s really important. We should all talk about it as much as we can.”
Wrapping it up…
So, what are Katja Herbers’ final thoughts on Kristen Bouchard? “Oh God, oh God, oh God. Maybe that? Maybe just a whole bunch of Gods.” I mean, it fits. But we can always fangirl a little harder and with more specifics — and we totally did. “I love her; I love playing her. I find her very fascinating, and strong, and vulnerable at the same time. And insane, at times. But she always bounces back, and I find that quite inspiring.”
At this point, I brought up the wish fulfillment a lot of us get from watching her have the opportunity to let her anger out in a way that most people…don’t get to. Those scenes — the ones where she gets to hand people their…you know.
“Yeah, no, it’s cathartic. For me, as well, to play. It’s really fun. And I love that people are like, completely fine with that. She murdered someone. They’re like, sometimes I see things on social media where they’re like, ‘I really support women’s rights. But most of all, I support, like, Kristen’s right to [F—] somebody’s [sh—t] up.” Here, I throw in my two cents: “Yes. Kristen’s wrongs. Like, we never did come back to the murder. She just got off — like, she’s living the life. And I think…if we want to go back to the climate thing, people are getting away with much worse,” so she deserves. Besides, like Herbers said, Kristen had to make sure LeRoux didn’t “kill her children.” So, “it’s…not bad, bad choice, actually.”
Can’t argue with that.
The (hopefully not) final season of Evil is now streaming on Paramount+. You can also feel free to keep smashing those streaming records with the first two seasons on Netflix. (Why not both?) And whether it’s more Evil or something else, we’ll be keeping an eye out for what Katja Herbers does next.
